Emrys says: I think we're going to need to do this again on a weekend to really have people able to come. Vain nods. Vain says: what be ye topic of todays meeting? Emrys says: anything you want Emrys hehs. Vain nods. Emrys says: Unk wasn't able to make it today, so the most profitable discussions will probably be about questions on how things work and suggestions for new things or changes. Emrys says: Not that I'm sure how it would be different with Unk here... except that of course Ratik and I can't commit to anything entirely without talking to him first. Eimher arrives. Ratik nods. Emrys says: I think though he also has some specific things he wants to talk about / get input on for planned changes. Vain says: that be what broughte me hither I wanted to see what new things come uppe, there were a few things in ye log that sounded interesting... Emrys shouts: T-minus 10 minutes and counting! Emrys nods. Emrys says: yes, this would be a time to bring up all the things that came up last time that we said to bring up next time :) Ratik snickers. Shamgar flies in as a blue-banded hawk and shimmers into his natural form. *Eimher passes around cookies. *Eimher baked too much. Grog forms himself out of a nearby mass of roaches. Reflection takes a cookie and nods at Eimher. :) Raston jumps in with a blinding flash of light. Eimher says: course now Grog and mans roaches has ruined everyone's appetite ;) Grog frowns. Kalimus arrives. Grog says: sorry. I used raid the other day . . they just keep coming. Eimher licks Grog. Kalimus turns into a daisy. Grog picks a petal off of Kalimus the daisy. Kalimus sings: smile Kalimus seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Eimher leaves west. Spencer arrives from the depths of chaos. Freya pops up through a trapdoor in the floor. Emrys shouts: 5 minutes, come to clinic east of main church! Ratik hugs Freya. Freya smiles happily. Emrys gives Freya a deep and passionate kiss. Grog grins evilly. Ratik says: Get a room, you two. Shamgar . o O (get a room) Shamgar hehs. Shamgar grins evilly at Ratik. Ratik snickers. Emrys says: we have a house! Ratik cheers. Grog grins evilly. Grog throws his head back and cackles with glee. Freya says: and a baby! Freya needs a pizza. Emrys says: yes..house...baby...pizza Emrys says: then life is complete Emrys peers quizzically at Freya. Freya says: don't mock me Grog ducks out of the way. Shamgar mocks Freya outrageously. Freya says: i have stayed up three nights in a row withh your child Emrys grins evilly. Freya says: I'm entitled to some non sequiturs and typos Grog thinks . o 0 (Save the watch) Emrys tries to ponder the situation but would rather fight something. Grog says: er . . . getting in deep. . . save the watch. Grog says: nevermind. Freya nods at Grog. Emrys shouts: Meeting on now! Ask me if you need a lift here. Emrys says: Well, I was afraid this would happen at this time. Emrys says: Silly working stiff Ratik. Ratik says: Who me? Emrys says: No, the other Ratik. Grog grins evilly. Ratik says: Yeah, he's a real chode. Grog agrees wholeheartedly. Emrys says: Unk wasn't able to make it at the last minute because he's travelling. Biteme arrives. Emrys says: We'll do this again for sure when he gets back to the UK, probably on a weekend so more people can show. Ratik bites Biteme! Freya waves at Biteme. Biteme kicks Ratik hard. Emrys says: But anyway... Ratik whirls around and kicks Biteme in the head. Emrys says: The camera is logging this for posterity. Emrys says: The question box allows you to 'ask' questions anonymously if you want to. Biteme beats out a rhythm on Ratik's head. Freya says: so get out your best kung fu moves! Freya says: er... Emrys says: Please don't be spammy etc., disclaimer disclaimer, yakkity yak... any questions? Biteme leaves west. Biteme arrives. Emrys says: For those that didn't see, 'help administration' has a list of the admin and their specific areas of responsibility, if that's helpful for knowing what to ask Ratik and I. Biteme says: got any beer ratik? Biteme hiccups. Ratik says: Yep. But I'm stingy. Emrys says: It's also worth knowing that he and are part of the admin group that also includes the G's, so we can theoretically speak to anything game-wide, though we don't make the final decisions. Biteme looks drunk. Biteme burps. Biteme hiccups. Emrys says: If nobody has their own questions, does anyone want to go get the log from last time and repeat the questions we asked people to wait on? Shamgar says: I'll take care of that if you want. Emrys shrugs. Biteme hiccups. Biteme says: nothing much was said important and earthchanging anyway Biteme burps. Biteme seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Drtsubo arrives. Emrys waves at Drtsubo. Ratik bows gracefully before Drtsubo. Drtsubo waves at Emrys, Biteme, Freya, Spencer, Kalimus, Raston, Grog, Shamgar, Reflection, Vain and Ratik. Biteme hiccups. Reflection says: hi Tsubo :) Kalimus sings: wave Biteme seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Biteme seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Biteme leaves west. Biteme arrives. Biteme says: not that i would but how do you use box Question: "Can the punishments be changed to allow you to lose everything and start over as punishment, but not lose your name? Since that's the name people know you by? (from earlier mtg)" Shamgar says: ask Biteme burps. Kneel screams: BOOGA! as he appears next to you. Biteme says: i want a char in shifters with the same stuff as it was when i was kicked out LOL Biteme creates a potion of drunkometer. Biteme drinks a potion and gains a nifty little drunkometer. Emrys says: oops I didn't see it...I need to color those Shamgar grins evilly. Biteme hiccups. Emrys says: As I think some of the players touched on then, part of the point of banishment is that it's very serious and involves losing the name. Dropping stats/etc. is another option for punishment and has been used when it's appropriate. Ratik says: Another thing to remember about Banishment is that it isn't always permanent. Emrys says: so the answer would be...yes Biteme says: that has always been an option and warnings too..POKE Vain says: heh...I woulde juste like to see ye joining requirements changed for ye shifters...yet thats probablye not for this discussione... Biteme burps. Emrys grins evilly at Vain. Emrys says: Hera is probably the one to talk to there. Emrys nods at Ratik. Emrys says: Yes, I wanted to mention that... especially since the new multiplayer rules, there are various kinds of banishment. Kneel says: There are several people who have been banished multiple times. Biteme looks drunk. Emrys says: Permament or tempoary, single character vs entire player, etc. Kalimus sings: the problem with getting into shifters is its too tough? Biteme hiccups. Biteme says: pretty tuff Biteme leaves west. Biteme arrives. Biteme burps. Ratik says: Anything relating to the shifter guild should probably be addressed to the Guildmasters (the players). Vain says: that was more of a commente, than a topic, sorrye... Ratik nods at Vain. Biteme twiddles her thumbs idly. Shamgar hrms. Question: "is there a set punishment for each level of offense? Or is it always up to the god/elder?" Biteme hiccups. Emrys says: In the past, it was the latter. Biteme leaves west. Question: "Is it that way now?" Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: In the last year(ish), we've established at least unwritten standard punishments, and all punishments that happen are logged and reviewed by various other admin. Emrys says: No, it isn't. Emrys says: And we're working to get those written down as well. Reflection says: will players have input regarding what those punishments should be? Emrys says: sure Reflection says: how Question: "I feel that if the players KNEW the set punishment ahead of time there would be less bickering and the God/Elder would have less to be blamed for" Emrys says: mail us, say your piece here, email lpmud@nostrum Emrys says: First, that's part of the goal of the public 'punishments' command. Emrys says: Second, it has been my experience that the bickering rarely gets to that point... most of the argument is over whether or not the person acknowledges they did anything. Emrys says: It's very rare for someone to be willing to fess up to what they did, regardless of what evidence there is, to even talk about the issue at any kind of meta-level. Emrys says: post on the board (going back to the how question) Emrys says: however they want to get the msg to us Reflection says: there is still a range of option regarding punishments which is up to the punisher, is this true? Emrys says: Only to a limited extent, since everything that happens is reviewed by the rules group and those over them, so there's at least implicit agreement on everything. Ratik says: We certainly need a range of punishments, because then we can take certain thigns into consideration. Ratik says: Such as age of player, culture, etc Emrys says: That is...it's not arbitrary. There are always options in that the punishment should fit the offense, and there are alwas many factors involved. Emrys says: But given *all* things being equal, two offenses should carry the same punishment. Reflection says: so the punisher isn't completely absolved of responsibility for the choice made in regards to each offense, a choice is made regarding the type of punishment Biteme arrives. Biteme says: good run on the market today Kalimus sings: is the player's sophistication about it a factor at all -- someone who knows they're blatantly violating the rules, versus someone who isn't as culpable? Emrys says: No one is absolved of responsibility. But the responsibility is shared if the punishment stands. Emrys nods at Kalimus. Drtsubo says: If there was a represenative of the players on the board to review punsihments then the players would at least have some say. Reflection says: at least one representative Biteme burps. Emrys says: case in point, it's somewhat common for a player to be led through a quest without knowledge of what's going on, especially a newbie.. we don't let them benefit from that, but it's not held against them either if they're truly ignorant of what's going on Biteme burps. Emrys says: at worst it's a learning experience for them Biteme says: i think we ought to work on getting and keeping new players say..50 or so on all the time and quit all the detective work Emrys says: We spend the majority of our time growing the game. Biteme hiccups. Kalimus has disconnected. Freya says: I think the question of warnings was brought up several times last time Emrys says: re: representative, anyone can respond to that that wants to Freya says: perhaps now would be a good time to discuss how various types of warnings fit into the punishment scheme too Emrys says: I'm going to not give mt .02 immediately because I don't want people to think it's more than me giving my .02. Biteme hiccups. Shamgar hehs. Biteme hiccups. Biteme says: i don't recall having a warning:P Kalimus rejoined the game. Kalimus has connected. Biteme hiccups. Emrys says: You have received repeated warnings throughout the years. Spencer leaves to eternal damnation deep within the earth. Emrys says: There is no rule that says each character gets a free messup, or that you get a warning for each offense individually. Freya says: I'll say this about warnings from my experience playing the game for the last five years: Biteme says: ah so i have used all them up IC:) Freya says: when I started, there was no such thing as warnings Emrys says: You've certainly been told to read the rules enough times :) Biteme says: hurts myeyes Freya says: if you happened to get caught, you could expect the God in question to do whatever he felt like at the moment Reflection says: which is exactly why there needs to be a written standardization of punishments as well as a review of rules to change those which are too rigid Biteme leaves west. Freya says: I think we've made some progress since then and are more lenient to players Kalimus sings: imho, some things are so blatant they merit no warning (like what i did -- pk via guild) Ratik says: I would definitely agree with that, and that we are more consistent. Reflection says: when I look at the old punishment log, I see that enforcements that include banishment are up, not down Freya says: we still have some progress to make certainly, and there are plans for improvement, especially greater standardization of punishments Freya says: Um, there is no old punishment log Freya says: there's an old banish log, that doesn't include other kinds of punishments Reflection says: so actually more players are being punished rather than fewer than in the past few years, more since the beginning of 2000 Freya says: so I'm not sure where you're getting that Emrys says: unless someone felt like writing it down Hyrljr arrives. Shamgar waves at Hyrljr. Reflection says: I am talking about frequency of banishment recently prior to 2000 as compared to after 2000 Hyrljr waves. Grog winks suggestively at Hyrljr. Ratik bows gracefully before Hyrljr. Raston waves at Hyrljr. Hyrljr bows gracefully before Ratik. Emrys says: You need to keep in mind that there are no real numbers as far as frequency in the past. Hyrljr winks suggestively at Grog. Emrys says: Part of the more arbitray nature of things is that they didn't write a lot down. Freya says: And of course we can't look just at how many players are being punished, but how many are committing certain offenses and what percentage of them are being caught, and what percentage of them are being banished, which there's no real way to look at Emrys says: And often the option chosen was to ban an entire site. Shamgar says: Could that not also be related to the increased number of players, and quite likely an increased number of infractions? Emrys says: So make sure you take a look at the banned site file too. Ratik says: There are lots more entries now I think too because of the change in multiple char rules. Ratik says: As in, allowed a large number of characters. Emrys says: Every player I've talked to that was around 'back in the day' has agreed that things are more fair today than they were then. Raston says: gotta run folks Raston jumps into the air and disappears from your sight. Shamgar nods at Ratik. Reflection says: it is the choice of admin to decide how much time and energy is put into enforcement of rules and which enforcements will be used, it is obviously the choice of admin to putmore time and effort into enforcement of rules, and use of banishment than recently prior to that Drtsubo says: banishment was also more related to if they liked you or not. Emrys says: reflection, that's BS Emrys says: you have no concept of what time we spend on this stuff Emrys says: unless you have cameras in our houses Hyrljr says: me do Hyrljr says: :) Emrys grins evilly at Hyrljr. Shamgar looks around his office in a panic. Reflection says: I am referring to the old banishment log and what it shows Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: Compare activity in 'punishments' and 'man changes'. Shamgar notes you shouldn't say things like that around us paranoid folks. Emrys says: There's 1 entry in 'punishments' for this month. Emrys says: there's 6 in 'man changes'. Reflection says: if you are encouraging people to ask questions, I would suggest that you be open to the suggestions and comments being made Emrys says: That doesn't tell the whole story, but neither do the files you're talking about. Hyrljr says: as me think thing me believe banish ment is good but et verry harsh punishment Freya says: There are a lot of banishments that don't show up in the old banish log too...can't think of how many times I've fingered a banished player and been unable to find their banish log entry Hyrljr says: there is many ways to punish and me think banishment should be last resort to straiten someone out Emrys says: I'm open to them, but if people are stating incorrect information I'm going to give them correct information. Emrys says: Misinformed dialogue isn't productive. Reflection says: from your perspective Emrys says: It isn't productive from any perspective. Freya says: I'm just trying to offer some of the factors that we can't see in the logs that we have Reflection says: that the information is incorrect is from your perspective Freya says: I think those are important to consider in addition to the contents of one admittedly spotty log Ratik says: Hyrljr: I feel that banishment *is* a last resort in most cases, unless something is extremely severe. Do you not feel that such is the case? Hyrljr says: well you also has to realize comming from "longtime wiz situation " and player situation has diffrent views Shamgar says: not really Shamgar says: not anymore Reflection says: good point hyrl, not everyone has the same viewpoint Shamgar says: most every wiz plays this mud too. Hyrljr says: yes but me believe you would or should punish other ways before banishment like loss levels and you cant do same quest over and so on Freya says: Heh wouldn't quite say that, but most every wiz who is active does Reflection says: and the viewpoints of the admin should not be imposed upon the players Hyrljr says: exactly Shamgar hehs. Shamgar nods at Freya. Shamgar says: Sorry, was unclear with my comment I guess. Hyrljr says: just as in you might no like what pres country does but you prob wouldnt listen to mans explination Emrys says: just some quick numbers, there were 19 listed banishments in 97, 25 in 96, 5 in 98, 14 in 99, and 18 so far in 2000 [Em: I grabbed those numbers with quick searches for the years in the log. I double checked them later, and they're different enough to list: Prior to 1995 there were no dates given, and the logs weren't at all complete, many times just listing a name with no reason (esp in the early early days). But 1990-1995 there were 209 *listed* character banishes, which is an average of 38 per year (5.5 years). In 96, there were 37 *listed* character banishes, representing 25 individual people (12 were multiple character banishes). 1 was for an obscene name, so that leaves 24 "regular" banishes. In 97, there were 21 listed, representing 14 people. No obscene names. In 98, there were 7 listed, representing 5 people. 2 obscene names, so 3 "regular". In 99, there were 7 listed, representing 5 people. No obscene names. In 00, there have been 36 listed, representing 24 people. 6 obscene names, so 18 "regular". By simple extrapolation, that's 22 "regular" for the year. Those are the most accurate numbers we have. See the rest of the discussion regarding what these numbers mean, if they mean anything.] Hyrljr says: well me cant say much (me no like athority verry mush (sorry)) Emrys says: where do you see a large discrepency there? Hyrljr says: am me one 18 wow im statistic Freya says: heh or are you 2 of the 18? Emrys says: noting that we've listed them all since at least the start of 00, but didn't necessarily prior to that Reflection says: well, the year isnt over, as you said, and the five in 98 and even the 14 in the whole of 99 is quite a difference, imo Emrys says: The m ud was dead in 98. Emrys says: 5 people *might* have been logged on most of the day. Hyrljr says: me dunno me thnk other pushishment should be enacted because if you has ever been banished thing sucks ass Hyrljr says: omg sorry Grog ruffles Hyrljr's hair playfully. Emrys says: I've done some of the number crunching since last time, and we're growing at right around 25%-30% right now. Emrys says: Keeping in mind that statistics are mostly BS. Kalimus sings: 25-30% of what?> Reflection says: I was here in 98, there werent as many players, no, but there werent multiple chars and there werent as many wiz seconds playing, from my recollection Emrys says: But if the number of banishments is GROWING even as much as the player base is, where is the increase you're talking about? Drtsubo says: how much of that are NEW players not multiple Hyrljr says: yo me 2 18 means me prob has most bannes wow now im winning something Reflection says: I wonder that too, Tsubo. Emrys says: The numbers there are from people logged in at any given time. Freya says: Heh heh you don't remotely have the most bans, Hyrl Emrys says: The number of unique logins is dropping at the same time. Hyrljr says: well me dont see why you is fighting banishment so mush me mean yes thing does suck but theres fact me dont screw around any more and me wont break rules again so thing has taught me lesson Emrys says: That second number grew sharply when the multiplayer rules went in. Reflection says: how about a prize for the most bans for someone under 16 :) Emrys says: And is now dropping to level off again. Hyrljr says: there us go Emrys nods at Hyrljr. Freya says: I think the old character Hellmonger might share that prize with you Hyrljr says: me prob (maybe) youngest player on here but me's friends is around though Emrys says: Hyrl got quite a few warnings before he was banned. Emrys says: And he's been a Good Boy ever since. Hyrljr says: yep like 1 or 2 me no piss*d any more because in tyme me realized me deserved thing Reflection says: define grew sharply Emrys says: Around 50% in a matter of months iirc. Hyrljr says: well everyone you know me want to stay(cuz me has alot views and big mouth) but me goin to football game Emrys says: From something like 600-700 to almost 1000. Reflection says: has it been maintained? Grog waves at Hyrljr. Hyrljr waves. Emrys says: has what? Reflection says: bye Hyrl :) Ratik waves at Hyrljr. Emrys waves at Hyrljr. Shamgar waves. Grog licks Hyrljr. Hyrljr says: Hyrljr dissaprears in puuuffff smuke (want as quit msg id be funny Reflection says: the rincreased number of unique players Hyrljr left the game. Emrys says: No, as I said it's dropping right now. Emrys says: Unique logins, not players. Reflection nods. Emrys says: This is the number of characters that log in, not anything about how many characters people have. Drtsubo says: some times log in just to read boards or mail. ANd I got 6 players Drtsubo says: some times log in just to read boards or mail. ANd I got 6 players Emrys nods. Emrys says: yes, that number is notiously unreliable Emrys says: notoriously Emrys says: the logged in ones are more interesting Kalimus sings: you have a counter on the log on the web page? Emrys says: along with, right now, just perceptions of people that are here Emrys says: how do you mean Kalimus? Drtsubo says: does that number also count wizards/gods? Kalimus sings: i mean, how many people read the log? Emrys says: yes drtsubo Drtsubo says: well we have 7 wizards/gods on and 8 players Freya says: you mean the log of the last meeting? Emrys says: This is not one of the normally high periods. Kalimus sings: nod Drtsubo says: that is about typical right? Emrys says: 4-6 is one of the lowest periods of the day. Emrys shakes hands with Drtsubo. Reflection says: and how many of the players are seconds of wizards :) Shamgar grins evilly at Emrys. Shamgar says: dr atmos Emrys says: it's somewhat high for this time of day actually Emrys says: 3 of the 8 are wiz seconds Emrys says: does it matter? Drtsubo says: yes I think it does Reflection says: yes, it does Emrys says: if people care enough about the mud to wiz, and then keep caring enough to even PLAY, why do they count less? Drtsubo says: I know wizards are on at same time as thier seconds Emrys says: The log has been accessed 57 times. Drtsubo says: so how can you count 2 people for that Drtsubo says: only one is playing Shamgar hrms. Freya says: by that logic we could also exclude people like Guitardude (not to pick on him) who get on and stay idle for hours Freya shrugs helplessly. Emrys says: or play poker Shamgar says: only a few wizards get their seconds on at the same time. [Em: To be precise, only wizards level 1000 and higher (Ret, Eld, God) are allowed to do this.] Emrys says: I agree we need a better way to keep track of things. I or Unk will proabbyl write one soon. Drtsubo says: that is true.. most alchemist are like that Freya says: you have to get numbers from somewhere, and take them with a grain of salt because they won't be perfectly accurate Shamgar says: not all or even most Reflection says: my interest is seeing a diverse group of players on the mud, when the majority of players is wizards and wizard seconds, it seems to me that new players aren't really being attracted to the mud, and I think this is a valid concern Emrys says: In the meantime the most reliable thing we proabbly have is experience of people that are around, and the mud is right now from all the logins I see quite a bit better off than it's been since it's first days, and it's growing still. Freya says: Personally, I feel like we're getting a lot of new players lately Shamgar says: esp for the time of year Emrys says: Reflection, you talked about player retention. Wiz seconds playing seems to me quite a good sign we're retaining players all the way through. Freya says: I'm always seeing new players that I don't know, even as I try to get to know whoever I can Drtsubo says: but are playing to the chior. not the new people Freya says: that's just my feelings, but if enough people can corroborate that, then I think we have something Reflection says: good point, Tsubo. Emrys says: we routinely have 20 players on in the eveninings, with 5-7 that are wizzes, and 60-75% of the players as non-wiz seconds. Two years ago we might see 15 people, 13 of them wizzes. Ratik says: You know, I personally haven't seen much in the way of constructive criticism. Emrys says: Well, 3 years ago. Emrys says: 2 years ago we might have 5 people at all. Ratik says: The only real complaints I've heard are from a handful of people and mostly about rules/punishments. Emrys says: I haven't either. Drtsubo says: with the advent of graphic MUDs I lost many friends as players to them and others MUDs Emrys says: So far we're playing "things are this way" "no they aren't" "yes they are". Ratik says: I see things like Everquest as a real problem for text-based MUDs, but there is little we can do about that. Shamgar says: nah Drtsubo says: ok. then is is wasted time Emrys says: I don't. Emrys shrugs. Drtsubo left the game. Shamgar says: I think some people will go there, but frankly it just can't stay. Emrys says: Especially for a mud like DR. Shamgar nods at Emrys. Freya says: Do any of the people who don't think we're getting enough new players have suggestions on how to get more? Shamgar says: It doesn't have the same feel DR does. Emrys says: EQ doesn't have poker tournaments and 10th anniversaries. Shamgar hehs. Shamgar says: EQ will probably never have a 10th anniv. Reflection says: this is exactly the type of example of admin behavior that alienates players, player input is trivialized and put into negative context Reflection says: if you want players to believe you are taking them seriously, then please do so Freya says: If we really wanted to trivialize player input we wouldn't have meetings with players at all Emrys says: it would help if players weren't being fed a line about things going on that aren't so they had a real idea of how the game even works Emrys says: people making comments based on false information are at a serious disadvantage Reflection says: Tsubo has played here longer than I have Jeremy, do you really think he doesnt know how the game works? Reflection says: he does, but he does from a players perspective, not from an admin perspective Ratik says: I'd say that Tsubo has a lot of insight into the game, as he was a wizard for a time. Reflection says: I can see that hte meeting has pretty much disintegrated Reflection waves. Reflection goes home. Vain says: I started playing Ultima Online laste yeare and it tooke a lot of time awaye from DR yet now I play DR or anothere mud more that UO Vain says: ouche...so sensitive... Emrys nods. Question: "What harm would it be if there were hints as to where areas begin? Newbies would still explore, just that they'd get a hint where a specific area is located." Emrys says: As I was trying to say about that Emrys says: I don't think text muds will ever see the heyday they did when they were new Ratik says: I'll take that last question. Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: we're probably not going to see a mud like DR with 1000 people logged on Emrys says: because the player base is more diversified across multiple muds Emrys says: including graphical ones Kalimus sings: there are too many other things to do on the net now Emrys nods at Kalimus. Ratik says: I've discussed the idea of advertising new areas with some of the other admin. Shamgar says: text muds appeal to a specific set of people too. Vain says: I maye not imagine theye shalt, not becase of graphic muds yet ye amounte muds available now... Kneel says: like the Hamsterdance. Kneel snickers. Shamgar says: not to be egotistical, but generally more intelligent imaginative people. Emrys says: Actually Rat you may not have heard yet... Kalimus sings: grin kneel Ratik says: But old areas will probably not be "advertised" as such. Emrys says: When we get maps of the two main towns up on the web, we want to get a general map of the whole mud, with wizard areas marked Emrys says: if the wizard wants them to be Ratik says: Ok, I hadn't heard that. Emrys says: Yes, it just came out of the last rules meeting, and then I was running it by Unk. Shamgar says: that'll be cool Emrys says: that's the goal anyway, it'll prolly come up at the next wizmeet Emrys says: we need someone that can draw Shamgar hehs. Emrys says: anyway at that point players can refer people to things on the map Shamgar . o O ( Not me! ) Freya says: I think that'll promote some older players doing some more exploring, as well as helping new players Vain says: I hope DR ne'er hast 1000 players on it at one time...not because Me doth not wante a lot of people to play ye mud juste large players at one time lieke that be rathere annoying... Ratik says: Anything that has a "secret" entrance would probably be left off the map. Emrys says: so that should give some more leeway for players while stil respecting wiz wishes Emrys says: for their own areas Shamgar nods. Freya grins evilly at Vain. Emrys nods at Ratik. Shamgar agrees wholeheartedly with Vain. Vain says: be it too late to make ye mud easye to mappe? :) Emrys says: if the wiz doesn't like that they can restructure their area, that's their choice Emrys shrugs. Shamgar says: I'd much rather have a small number of close knit players, than a huge mud with tons of players where hardly anyone knows anyone else. Ratik says: I've had a rather large area in the game for years, but only a handful have visited it. Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar says: it's cause your fat. Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar says: er you're Ratik kicks Shamgar hard. Kneel snickers. Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar leaves forever. Vain says: honestlye 'tis harde to knowe what area thou art in unless thou knowe 'tis a quest area... Ratik grins evilly. Kneel laughs. Shamgar hehs. Freya says: sensitive! Ratik says: We've tried to stay away from things that make new area marks obvious. Shamgar says: some areas have signs on em, but yeah, that's more and more rare. Ratik says: It makes for poor flow. Shamgar nods at Ratik. Shamgar says: makes sense. Emrys says: I'd rather have DR be the kind of place it's always been that emphasizes hanging out playing poker and stuff and has unique guilds and quests and card games, and grows with the player base that likes that and with the things they want to see, instead of playing "keep up with the jonses" Shamgar agrees wholeheartedly with Emrys. Emrys says: not that that's a good way to put it Vain says: I play a mud that hast a "whatarea" commande that all levels of player mayst use. I use it sometimes yet for ye moste parte who cares what area thou art in unless thou art questing... Ratik says: And really, there is no way to please everyone in everything. We just have to be fair and do what we think is best to fit the "vision" of the MUD. Shamgar nods. Ratik says: That vision can change, too. Emrys nods. Ratik says: It isn't just what we say goes, we take input from players every chance we get. Kneel says: there have been a few times that wizards have considered placing a part of somebody else's quest in their area though.. Ratik says: One of our big problems is that we don't get enough constructive input. Kalimus sings: somebody has to make the rules[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D_[C[C[ Shamgar says: I would agree. While change is good, change for the sake of change is not. And just up and revamping the things that make DR what it is could actually cause more problems than it solves. Kalimus sings: _some_body has to make the rules, and wizs etc are the folks with the most investedin the game Shamgar nods at Ratik. Emrys says: Well I don't think wizzes necessarily have the most invested in the game. Emrys says: But we've yet to hear criticism of "the way things are" that the majority of people (wizards and players) or even a plurality agree with. Ratik says: Some players have quite a bit of time invested, certainly. Ratik says: Basically, the top list :) Kalimus sings: true. so, insert "as a rule." Kalimus sings: or not :-) Shamgar says: I played another mud that made a change to the core of the mud, even let some of the oldest players look it over before implementing it, and /still/ they had a huge rift over it. There were angry posts on the boards for a long time. Lots of people left. Shamgar shrugs helplessly. Freya whistles oddly. Shamgar says: Course, in that particular case I think the change was for the better, but there are always two sides to an issue. Shamgar whistles oddly. Emrys says: you're lucky if there are two sides Grog says: There's always two sides, it's just that some people refuse to flip the coin over and admit it. Shamgar says: note I didn't say both sides always have a leg to stand on either. Emrys whistles oddly. Shamgar says: I think he means there are generally more than 2 sides. Grog goes 'ah'. Freya says: sometimes there are 5 sides Shamgar says: like a pentagon. Shamgar grins evilly. Grog grins evilly. Freya says: sometimes as many sides as people who look at the issue Kneel says: then it becomes more of a circle, or sphere. Shamgar hehs. Kneel says: but I digress. Freya says: if five people look at the issue, sometimes those two are the same Freya doesn't get enough sleep anymore. Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar pokes Ratik in the ribs. Shamgar says: er nm Shamgar says: you already answered that one Shamgar hehs. Grog throws his head back and cackles with glee. Shamgar says: anyone have comments on having a player on the comittee that reviews punishments? Freya says: ok, did we ever have a discussion of warnings in general? or just of warnings as they relate to specific people? Shamgar says: I think it was mentioned that warnings aren't guaranteed. Though I'd say everyone gets a warning everytime they log in. Ratik says: sorry, e-mailing Shamgar says: >>> TYPE 'help rules' TO READ THE RULES! VIOLATORS MAY BE PUNISHED! <<< Shamgar says: see Grog hehs. Freya says: another question that I think came up last time in some form is what about having a mixed system for advancement Freya says: ie, something like what eternals have, but for all players Ratik says: Most of the admin are in favor of that possibility. Ratik says: But it will require a lot of doing. Emrys says: re: player rep, what's the punishments command if not that Emrys says: every player sees every punishment and is 100% to bitch to whoever they want to Shamgar whistles oddly. Freya whistles oddly. Emrys says: 100% free Emrys whistles oddly. Emrys whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Ratik says: If ya'll don't stop that I'm going to have to log my barbarian in. Shamgar grins evilly. Kneel cringes in terror. Shamgar says: sorry Grog grins evilly at Ratik. Shamgar says: we are giving tech support help. Ratik laughs out loud. Shamgar says: I think the point was to have a player there when the admin review each punishment and have a vote on it. Shamgar says: which I'm not sure is even how things works. Shamgar says: or that you need/want to/can share that. Emrys says: it isn't that formal Shamgar says: I have a feeling you probably just all monitor it and bring up problems, same as players should do. Shamgar nods. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar says: I know Shamgar says: tech support from barbarians. Ratik says: If we reviewed every punishment, we really would spend more time on rules enforcement. Shamgar says: what a concept Emrys says: bottom line if we want to set up a policy of having some players that formally give input into things, it's fine with me Kneel says: If anything, there ought to just be a set of guidelines developed to gauge appropriate responses. Shamgar says: I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Emrys nods. Shamgar says: I think these meetings will go a long way towards encouraging feedback on things. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar says: Should help to quench any fear that might be running out there still about questioning decisions/rules/etc Emrys says: you know, Reflection would get a lot farther with her ideas if she'd actually propose a change and be glad to talk about it and such instead of coming in with "you're doing it all wrong, it has to be this way" and then using false accusations to get her point across. Emrys says: "people shoudln't get banished for no reason" Emrys says: well, duh Kneel snickers. Ratik says: I tried to ask for constructive criticism. You can see that it got nowhere. Phule taps you on the shoulder from behind. Ratik waves at Phule. Phule says: Everyone else was here... Kneel waves at Phule. Grog grins evilly at Phule. Kneel nods. Kalimus sings: hey! Biteme arrives. Freya waves at Biteme. Biteme smiles happily. Ratik says: It's back! Biteme bounces around. Ratik bites Biteme! Freya grins evilly. Biteme says: biteme!! Grog grins evilly. Biteme says: masochist! Biteme burps. Freya says: ok, someone brought up the question of which quests are being completed (by players) most often Phule says: Gotta go. Phule is yanked into his left eye by a tiny arm. Shamgar nods. Biteme seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Emrys says: The newbie ones Emrys says: Sorry guys, I'm not very into this right now. Freya says: I think that could be useful info for players to have in some form Emrys says: And I'm getting another big headache...darn lights. Biteme looks drunk. Biteme looks drunk. Kneel says: that's a large part of the reason why the point values get reduced as the quests get older. Emrys says: It would be feasible enough to have the questd dump tjhat info along with the quest. Emrys says: We need to update the questd a lot, which is waiting on the characterd, whcih is... Shamgar says: you need a military parachute over your cubicle. Biteme seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Shamgar grins evilly at Emrys. Freya says: heh Emrys says: yes, I do. Ratik says: Ah, finally figured out what [we] were talking about Ratik says: I think that's a splendid idea. Emrys says: damn it ratik stop being so unreasonable. you have to listen to people. Ratik says: Did you say something, Em? There's a loud buzzing noise in my ears left over from before. Biteme burps. Biteme looks drunk. Shamgar hrms. Shamgar really expected a more productive meeting. Shamgar sighs deeply. Emrys says: man, we had a lot of upcoming changes i wanted to talk about War arrives. Shamgar nods. Freya says: hmm...anyone else think a PK Arena tournament would be cool? Ratik says: War, huh, good god ya'll. Emrys says: instead of running around pointing out we aren't doing things people are making up Emrys says: sure Shamgar nods at Freya. Grog nods at Freya. Shamgar says: no sleep == good ideas Shamgar grins evilly. War hehs. Freya pokes the players. Emrys says: I'd do more wars if people wanted to. Shamgar nods. Kneel says: no sleep == hallucinations. Shamgar says: as long as it doesn't happen so often it gets to be routine. Kneel says: sometimes entertaining. Emrys says: why not? Shamgar says: I think wars are enjoyed more by being occaisional. Ratik says: That's probably true. Ratik says: People get excited by uncommon things,. Shamgar says: if you have them every day it's just another part of the mud, and people won't see it as special anymore. Vain says: wars seeme like a cool idea yet I juste ne'er mayst dedicate time to getting to them, I usuallye get moste of my play time in when I hath got a slowe daye at worke... Shamgar nods. Ratik says: If we do them really often we'll have less turnout. Emrys nods. Ratik says: And if it goes away people start getting grumpy about it. Emrys says: i'd like to have them open enough that when a group wants to do one, they can Emrys says: ie by definition they happen when we have the interest Ratik says: that would actually be cool Shamgar says: that wouldn't be a bad idea. Emrys says: along with scheduling a few Emrys says: well, it really could be that way now Emrys shouts: re: suggestions to have more wars: anytime you want to do one, ask me, and I'll do it if I'm free. Ratik says: I agree that we should probably schedule them from time to time. Vain says: how about a "war guild" or an "war optione", or be that what a "clane" shalt offere? Emrys says: I should make a war help file. Ratik says: (additionally{) Shamgar says: hell, we might even be able to make it so a group could all just meet at any time, and all sign up and when they have enough players it starts one. Emrys says: Vain do you mean to have on mud pk? Shamgar says: kind of like some other online games (descent/etc) Emrys nods at Shamgar. Emrys says: I need to get the bugs worked out but that's the idea. Ratik says: I wonder if a PK port would work? Shamgar hrms. Ratik says: There's lots of obvious problems with that idea. Shamgar nods. War hehs. Emrys says: we've talked to people about it, esp the ones that use it...i think we're mostly going with whawt they seem to be after War says: oh, PK on mud option? I've seen that before. Emrys says: the problems we've seen with a pk option for anyone are that it tends to turn into a problem for those that don't want to pk War says: They would sign the "book of blood" which made them eligible as PKer/Pkee. Emrys says: things don't work out in reality the way they do in theory Vain says: do not knowe, in comparisone to othere muds and ultima there art guilds that art purelye PK, when theye slaye eache othere, yet not characters outside of ye guild...or a grouppe of people mayst got to war withe eache othere, theye hath to bothe agree to "war" eache othere obviouslye... Ratik says: The Musashi Flex? Ratik giggles inanely. Shamgar says: generally, even if they aren't in it it tends to bother othoer players. Reflection arrives. Emrys nods at Vain. Emrys says: it's come up a few times Emrys says: i think it could happen eventually Vain nods. Vain says: a War area woulde be interesting... Freya says: Em, you said there were other changes you wanted to discuss Emrys says: as I've said, the main concern would be that it not harm the people that wanted to stay out of it, and we haven't seen one that would work that way...the routine wars seem a better option Freya says: do you want to throw them out before the meeting ends so they'll be in the log and players cna comment? War says: yeah, that would be kewler, cause PKing sometimes might be cool, but not others Emrys says: I think messy was loking at making a pk area like his arena. Ratik says: And it would be lame if you could pull yourself in and out of the PK group. Emrys says: based on the star trek holodecks or something, so you could choose the environment Emrys says: sounded rather cool Ratik says: Well, only b/c it could be abused. Shamgar nods. War says: hehhee, yeah, but, the other problem with not being in/out is that what if you were questing & registered as PKer? Emrys says: well, we already mentioned the idea of having maps to deal with the issue of what areas are what stuff War says: Oh, I'm sucking at trying those maps *sigh* Emrys says: and briefly the idea of not letting all player advancement be qp/xp mix and match Emrys says: er Emrys says: of letting Emrys says: eye kin tipe Grog grins evilly at Emrys. War snickers. Grog casts out Emry's typo demon. Emrys says: to let people that don't want to quest still play, if their guild isn't enough for them Emrys says: without thinking they need to cheat/etc. Ratik says: I really like that idea, so that players can use their strengths. Emrys nods. Emrys says: I really wanted to see Chaos' idea of guild-only stuff go through so it was up to the guilds. Emrys sighs deeply. Emrys says: That was so cool. Ratik nods. Emrys says: And it was so much continuing to work with DR's already great stuff. War lags helplessly. Emrys comforts War. Ratik says: Perhaps we can look into that again at some point. Ratik says: It used to be that the dual system was better when we were heavily limited to few chars. Freya says: the idea of a list of general hints for questing was proposed...I wouldn't mind writing that up if players and wizards want to contribute their hints Emrys nods. Emrys says: I started on it briefly. Freya says: (talking about things like "Look at everything in every room." Freya says: ) Emrys says: I don't think I saved anything yet though. Emrys says: I added a 'help search' today. Ratik says: That would be immensely helpful. When I started this mud, I had no clue how to play or quest. Freya nods. Ratik says: I figured out how to play ok, but it took a long time for me to get questing. Ratik says: Not only that, but quests have evolved a great deal since then. Freya says: I've thought about creating a quest that doesn't actually give quest points, but teaches a newbie how to quest Emrys nods. Biteme has disconnected. Emrys says: I think that document will go in once it gets written. Freya says: but I don't think I'll actually get around to doing it Emrys nods at Freya. Emrys says: a few people have wanted to do that but no one has finished Freya says: if another wizard wanted to pick up that idea, I think it would be great Emrys says: /I'd/ like to see something very original done there, just cause other muds have done that idea that way Emrys says: but I don't know what it would be Freya says: So anyway, I'll start on a list of general hints, and I know Em has some...if you have any, mail me and I'll incorporate them Reflection says: I had a mini area like that written out, sent it to Unk a couple of years ago as a player Shamgar hrms. Reflection says: it left the newbie player fully equipped and wouldnt let them advance until they had found all the equipment, encouraging them to be thorough Shamgar says: yeah, something better than the typical CIRCLE/DIKU/etc mud intro areas. Grog grins evilly at Shamgar. Shamgar says: something that gives real tips on how to be a good player here. Emrys hmms. Grog waves at Emrys, Reflection, War, Biteme, Freya, Kalimus, Kneel, Shamgar, Vain and Ratik. Grog disintergrates into a pile of roaches and scitters away. Vain says: eeke not ye mud schoole :) Kalimus rejoined the game. Freya grins evilly at Vain. Emrys says: I wonder if we could get a method to have a newbie quest that also dealt with the issue of newbie equip and money/etc... AA had such a cool thing for money. Emrys says: but then it would be in high demand and might not be around for new players as much...but Shamgar nods. Shamgar says: well... Shamgar says: it could always regen for each player. Luggage arrives. Reflection waves at Luggage. Luggage waves at Reflection. Shamgar says: I would say, you can only go through it once, and you can't retreat. Emrys says: well, I'd want to avoid confusing them about how the rest of the game works Shamgar hrms. Shamgar says: true Shamgar says: well, you could limit it to level 1 players Shamgar says: that's not so unusual Vain says: A mud I hath beene playing hast a "reste" commande for players < lvle 5, excelerated healing and suche nay need to buye aught... Freya says: the question of quest syntax was brought up...Ratik, would you want to say what QC's policy is on syntax that's tricky to figure out? Reflection says: can you set regen time as faster than other mud areas? Shamgar says: and we don't have that many level 1 players. Emrys says: i still think, though, that the best investment in new players is experienced players helping them out Shamgar agrees wholeheartedly with Emrys. Ratik says: QC's policy on syntax is that it should make sense. Emrys says: DR is a social mud...that's the real thing to show people Ratik says: What's tough is decided what makes sense. Ratik says: er, deciding Emrys says: Unk and were discussing a way to make standard synonyms handled at the mudlib level. Shamgar says: I went with skrull once when he was showing a newbie around. He did a /great/ job. Emrys says: So that wizards would have to worry less themselves about that... we even briefly got into internationalization questions ;) War snickers. Emrys pokes War in the ribs. Shamgar grins evilly at War. Emrys hehs. Reflection says: I rarely show people around anymore because the game has changed to be less fun to do so than it used to be, I felt like I had a lot more freedom in the 'old days' Emrys says: why? Shamgar boggles at the concept. Emrys says: I'm really asking here. War says: how so? War peers quizzically at Reflection. Shamgar nods. Reflection says: probably because I had good conversations with the admin then, chatted with wizards as I explored their areas, they seemeed to appreciate me showing newbies their areas Freya says: do you mean like freedom to show newbies where areas are or something else? War hmms. Reflection says: now there seems to be a paranoia that too much about an area will be shared with a new palyer Freya nods at Reflection. Reflection says: half the fun of being an 'experienced' player is showing what you know Emrys nods. Freya says: I think having maps up will make that more defined...like what is ok and not ok to show a new player Reflection says: and I think the admin has to have more trust that UL players' judgement might be good regarding how much to share Freya says: but I do agree with you that things have shifted some there and should shift back Reflection says: I dont think that what can be shared should be that 'controlled' War says: I can see that to a degree, certain areas are total quest areas. You're apprehensive about showing someone something about certain areas. Freya shrugs helplessly. Reflection says: sure, it creates a bond Reflection says: a reason for people to come back, someone to group with and show them the ropes Freya says: I think letting it be controlled by the wizard who creates the area is a good compromise Reflection says: to me that is more important than a set of rules Reflection says: I would agree with that Emrys says: will anyone believe me that we had those problems in the past, which is why the mud was dead 2 years ago, and the people working on things now are trying to fix things that have been broken, but it takes time? War nods. Emrys says: Esp time to change player's perceptions. Reflection says: I think the mud was more fun several years ago Emrys says: I have absolutely no problem with people grouping around and showing where equip and stuff is. I do it myself. Reflection says: for me it was Vain says: mayhaps thou juste need some time awaye, that helps me... Ratik says: For me I'd say it's way better now. Reflection says: it wasnt nearly as competitive and much more social War hmms. Ratik says: I enjoy competition, though, so that might be part of it. Ratik says: Though it's more of competition with my "peers" at this point. Emrys says: I don't care much about competing. Vain says: I finde that it gets boring/less fun when I let it cut into RL, thoughe as a wiz it mayst be difficulte, to "vacatione" Emrys says: It's fun for me sometimes to race someone to a level. Emrys says: My fun is usually more in talking to people, questing with people, and checking out the guilds. War nods. Emrys says: Ref, you weren't a wiz back then, but you definitely are enjoying yourself more now as a wiz than you would have then. War says: but, for some, seeing "their names in lights" is something, too. Emrys says: Drtsubo can corroborate this... back then low wiz players couldn't do ANYTHING to help players. Emrys says: That's why he wanted to unwiz. Reflection says: please dont make judgements for me as to what I would and woouldnt feel or do Emrys says: Well, would Kitty enjoy not being able to give any non wiz-player anything at all? Emrys says: No money, no equip, barely able to talk to them? Reflection says: Kitty doesnt do that anymore much anyway Ratik has disconnected. Reflection says: the game just isnt as fun Ratik rejoined the game. Ratik has connected. Emrys says: When we were all coming up, all of that was entirely illegal. Ratik says: I'm going to idle while I go home. "See" you folks in a few. Emrys says: Heck, people got in trouble if they killed a monster and left the loot there. War goes 'ugh'. War says: that woulda sucked. Reflection says: I am talking about my own experience here Emrys says: And I'm not kidding. Vain says: almoste as bad as that nastye breaking sworde thing that be builte into ye 2.4.5 mudlibe... Reflection says: my own experience is that the game is not as fun now as it was a few years ago, in a social context, I feel more 'controlled' by the present administration Emrys says: I know Kitty still helps people out. I see the logs. To be frank, it still isn't "legal". But we allow it, and that rule is going to be rewritten for real as soon as we can get it. Reflection says: not very often War says: How so, reflection? I must be missing somthing on that end. I honestly don't. Emrys says: Two years ago your current title would most likely have gotten your banished by the admin. Emrys says: And don't forget the circumstances that did get you banished several years ago, which were total BS. Reflection says: I am presenting my perspective, War, I feel that the present admin is much more controlling than past, hands off, periods of time War hmms. Reflection says: actually, you mean when raistlin banished me? Emrys nods. Freya says: this is just a question, but do you think you might be finding the game less fun because you are a wizard? Reflection says: this is going to be a surprise, prolly, as I didnt understand it myself for a long time, but someone was doing somethng illegal and I was covering for him, not because I wanted to cover illegal activity, but because I didnt understand what he was doing Freya says: I know a lot of people do...just a thought Reflection says: so I understand Raistlins frustration Shamgar nods. Reflection says: no, when I became a wizard, I looked forward to contributing, what is less fun is hthe discovery and experience of the politics of the admin Emrys says: Raistlin knew who was doing it, yet he banished you for not being willing to tell who it was. At least, that's what you told me then he said his reason was. Freya says: sad baby :( Reflection says: he didnt admit to me that he knew who it was Emrys says: It's in the log from the day he did it. Emrys says: paraphrase, "kitty banisheding for withholding info about dali..." Emrys says: eye kin tipe War says: I don't think the attitude of the admin has changed drastically from the "hands-off" era, rather the logging programs have improved. Shamgar doesn't believe it. Emrys says: heh Emrys says: well war peope don't get transed to sharon for no reaosn at all anymore :) War laughs. War says: well, I wasn't here when stuff like that was happening. Reflection says: he wrote that after he found out who it was, he didnt know at the time he was 'interrogating' me (and that was an experience to tsurvive and tell about, I can tell you) Reflection says: but in retrospect, I can fully understand his frustration Emrys says: Reflection I want to understand your apprehension. We can't change anything otherwise. But we're talking about specific places where the admin allow more than they used to, so we're wondering what specific things you feel more restricted about. Reflection says: I feel more 'watched' and I feel that other players are being punished in a more drastic way than they should, I think this is hurtful to the game and it makes things very unpleasant to log in and find that it has happened *agin* Reflection says: again Reflection says: I dont want to encourage people to play in an atmosphere that I myself dont enjoy anymore Reflection says: the admin is too 'hands on' regarding player activities Emrys wonders if this is the downside to increased publication of information and increased accountability. Reflection says: just chat with players, forget the policing Emrys says: I mean, I think of the admin that used to abuse their power to watch people in chat rooms alone... Shamgar hehs. Vain says: wow I maye not beleive I reade ye whole log from laste meeting.... Emrys says: And the admin punished for logging that stuff and posting it to usenet... Reflection says: well, yes, there was that, but I am talking about actuall game play and grouping Shamgar says: Em and I started our own place to go and talk a long time ago because of that kind of crap. Reflection says: Hellmonger was a hellraiser, but he was the MOST fun person to groupwith Reflection says: you never knew what he was going to do next Emrys says: and there was no problem with that. then he started killing people. Reflection says: and he wouldnt be accepted by todays admin, I dont believe Emrys says: i still consider josh a friend Emrys says: i talk to him when he's around Reflection says: well, he was a very reasonable person if you knew how to approach him War says: but PKing? Emrys says: He repeatedly summoned players to the ringwraith or the elevator and killed them. Kalimus sings: snicker Reflection says: it could have been remedied, that is the thing, judgements are made, actions taken without a real 'trial' or player input as to what is going on War says: hehehe, I got banished for that one. War snickers. War struts proudly. Kalimus sings: poke war Reflection says: he was bored, and no, it wasnt ok behaviour but I think it could have been averted in another way :) Emrys says: but this all happened in the previous "hands off" period we're talking about Reflection says: I especially like hyrl because he is a very 'watered down' version of Josh Emrys says: I was barely a wiz when all this happened. Emrys says: (just for people's reference) Reflection says: I am not referring to the PK ing anyway, I am referring to shouts and general mischief Emrys says: Hyrl himself has told me repeatedly he thinks what he got was deserved and has made him a better player. Reflection says: I didnt even know he ws Pking to be honest Emrys says: Well, that's what he was banished for. Emrys says: Until he did that people didn'thave problems with him. Emrys says: Same as mugger, he used to run around doing all kinds of weird stuff, it was fun Shamgar hehs. Shamgar remembers mugger. Emrys says: then he decided to spew 14 aliens into the boat between mainland and newland to deliberately kill players Shamgar says: dont' remember hellmonger as much. Emrys says: for those that don't know, aliens are very nasty Shamgar throws his head back and cackles with glee. War nods. Emrys says: it killed i forget how many people...6? 8? War laughs. Reflection says: well, Hyrl is very malleable, and it would have been much preferable had you talked to him about it and reasoned with him and used a lesser punishment first, my previousmy personal impression is that a much lesser punishment would have worked Emrys says: unk banished him for it Shamgar says: funny but really can'at be allowed Reflection says: sorry about the mess, have telnet Reflection says: lost track of what I was typing Shamgar hehs. Emrys says: we found out later he did it ebcause he wanted to be banished Shamgar says: still easier to follow than some of these guys. Shamgar grins evilly at Reflection. Shamgar coughs pointedly. War says: who? me? War pokes Shamgar in the ribs. Freya says: I've gotten the impression from Hyrl that the only thing he wishes were different would be having his original name back Freya says: and that's still a definite possibility for him Emrys says: Ref, we did talk to him, multiple times. He didn't take any of it seriously. The perception he's had that these are "real" people and hee needs to respect others has drastically changed since he got that rude awakening. Reflection says: he is very eager to please, Freya Reflection says: I think he is saying these things partly because it is pleasing people he wants to please :) Emrys says: From my dealings with him on a rules level, he *became* the reasonable way he is now when he got banned, not before. Reflection says: which is why I think rather thanmulitple warnings, graduated punishements might have been more effective, something very mild at first Emrys says: In the end, if he keeps behaving, the end result of what he'll get is having to re-raise his player through several low levels. Emrys says: and like I've told you before, if we go there, we throw the concept of standardized punishments out the window Reflection says: I disagree, I think punishments should be graduated, if a graduated protocol had been used Vain says: well I hath to go home, bye everyone... Reflection says: I think it would have been more effective and less harsh Vain bows gracefully before Ratik, Kneel, Luggage, Kalimus, Emrys, Reflection, War, Biteme, Freya and Shamgar. Freya waves at Vain. Reflection waves at Vain. Vain waves at Ratik, Kneel, Luggage, Kalimus, Emrys, Reflection, War, Biteme, Freya and Shamgar. Kneel waves at Vain. Vain left the game. Freya says: I'm not sure how it could be more effective, honestly...Hyrl still plays and enjoys the game, and he doesn't violate the rules anymore Emrys says: based on the way he *was* behaving and *was* responding to things, if we'd kept graduating from small warnings to big warnings to small punishments, he would've kept doing what he was Freya says: which would seem to be the goal of punishment in general Emrys says: til the large punishments would've meant less when he got there Kalimus returns to a natural human form. Shamgar says: it would've just meant endless frustration Kalimus bows gracefully. Kalimus left the game. Reflection says: more effective by being less harsh and more reasonable regarding player sensibilities Shamgar says: instead, he got a wake up call and turned around. Shamgar shrugs helplessly. Reflection says: I dont think he would have, actually Shamgar hrms. Reflection says: things went from zero to 60 regarding punishment Reflection says: from warnings to banishment, it doesnt make sense to me Shamgar says: I'm not an expert or anything, but I don't think hyrl is the "sensibilities" type. He seems to be more on the rough and tough end of things. I think the direct attention getting method was really the better way. Reflection says: I think he has demonstrated a LOT of sensitivity Shamgar says: I think /that's/ why he says what he says, and I think (not trying to be offensive here) you do him a disservice to say he's pandering to emrys. Reflection says: now Hellmonger was rough and tough :) Shamgar says: I didn't say he doesn't have sensitivity Shamgar says: just that it's not as effective for him. Reflection says: that is where I disagree Shamgar says: er, that being sensitive with him is as effective. Shamgar says: from a correctional standpoint anyway Shamgar says: obv a general day to day interaction doesn't require smacking him around Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar says: still fun, but not required. Shamgar throws his head back and cackles with glee. Reflection says: I just hope that things change so that a graduated punishment style is implemented and less is left to the judgement of the punishing admin Emrys says: those aren't ends of a continuum Shamgar says: I just don't think that's going to work. Emrys says: we may not have the first but we also don't really h ave the second Shamgar says: if you had someone who was persistantly harrassing others. Esp in an offensive manner. Would you want him to get 20 slaps on the wrist before any real punishment gets handed down? Reflection says: it looks that way to me, and I will not take your perspective on that as 'the way it is' because you are an admin, I will trust my own judgement on it Emrys says: player x, who has been a problem repeatedly and received multiple warnings, uses one character to help the other. standard punishment -- player x is banished. that's not arbitrary. Reflection says: that isnt what was happening, apples and oranges Reflection says: what happened was potion passing, whole different things Shamgar says: rules are rules Reflection says: thing Shamgar says: the point is that diff situtations require different approaches. Reflection says: no, rules regarding player safety take a priority Shamgar says: and that's where the admin has to be able to make a judgement call. Reflection says: if rules were rules, both emrys and I would be banished by now Emrys says: I haven't done anything I'd banish someone for. Emrys says: I can't speak for you. Reflection says: rules are not all the same Reflection says: you have broken the rules, if rules are rules, then all rules are punishable if one is Shamgar says: for the purposes of discussing a unilateral graduated punishment system they are. Reflection says: or banishable Emrys says: no one said all rules are banishable Emrys says: and they aren't Reflection says: no, different offenses would have differnt punishments Reflection says: player harassment is banishable, potion passing shouldnt be, that was my point, please dont miss it War says: Okay, I'm just a player, no admin exp, but I'm gonna say this. If I warn even a little kid multiple times not to touch that hot pan on the stove, eventually, I'm gonna get sick of telling them......ie. let them touch==banishment. Now, we should all be reasonably close to being competent adults on this game, and they *really* shouldn't need the hot pan, but sometimes they do. Me included. Emrys says: and his point was that if you want to use a graduated system for one you should use it for the other Shamgar says: so what is important to you, should be banishable but what isn't important to you shouldn't be? Emrys says: you were talking about a graduated system, not just punishments for given offenses Reflection says: player safety should definitely be given a higher priority than other rules which don't affect player safety Reflection says: a graduated system would take into consideration different offenses Emrys says: but if a graduated system is more effective, why not apply it to harassment? Shamgar nods. Emrys says: that's what I think he was asking Emrys raises an eyebrow at Shamgar. Shamgar says: in my own, less than crystal clear way. Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar always takes the long complicated way around. Reflection says: I think it should be, just different punishments leading to eventual banishment than somethingn like potion passing, I think repeated harassment should be banished, repeated potion passing isnt the same thing Freya nods at Shamgar. Freya says: you do Shamgar says: thanks. Emrys says: it wasn't "just potion passing", it was a pattern of repeated disregard for the rules and disrespect for other people Emrys says: whcih, frankly, is the beginning of harassment Reflection says: more specifics please Reflection says: what kind of disrespect? Emrys says: he had a pattern since he logged on of bothering people to give him stuff, give him info, shouting obnoxious things, and ignoring or mouthing off to those that told him not to Emrys says: the potion passing thing he did as people were telling him not to do it because it was illegal Reflection says: what was he shouting? and I wouldnt call that kind of activity harassment, I would call harassment somethign that devalues another person, was he asked by these people to stop asking for information? Emrys says: when people come to me and complain that a person won't leave them alone, that's harassment. Reflection says: did they ask him to leave them alone? or did he continue after you asked him not to, which I assume you did Kneel says: most people who shout annoying things get a boot to the head, at least while I'm on, anyway.. Kneel smirks. Emrys says: you can define it how you want. if someone's behaviour is interfering with other people's play, it's a problem. Emrys says: yes and yes. Emrys says: hence the comments about disrespect. Reflection says: perhaps a discussion regarding what information he needed and how he could get more information would have been helpful as an alternative to asking players Emrys says: I don' tthink he was malicious.. he seemed to generally take it as them not liking him personally or something, which just provoked him to bug them more. Emrys says: He failed to take them seriously... until he was banished, and then he appears to have had an ephiphany. Emrys says: People aren't always as reasonable to talk to as we might like. He wasn't then. He has been now. Emrys says: He wasn't bugging people so much out of trying to advance on the game as it was wanting attention as far as we could tell. Reflection says: the point I was making was that I would like to see a standardized graduated approach to punishments, with player input as to how it should be implemented, I think that Hyrl's punishment would have been more effective and less harsh had it been implemented before this event Emrys says: Attention isn't bad to want, but he needed to respect their space. Reflection says: well, yes, and once he had positive attention it stopped Emrys says: no Emrys says: once he was banished it stopped Reflection says: he was NOT contrite after banishment, he ws contrite after you had a reasonable conversation and he felt heard Reflection says: he was very upset with you after the banishment Emrys says: no, he came back even a few days after banishment and told me some things Reflection says: it wasnt that which changed his behavior, it was the fact that you *finally* sat down and talked to him as a person Emrys says: he may not have liked me *personally* before we had more conversations, but that's a different story Reflection says: this is when his behavior changed Emrys says: no, it isn't Shamgar says: man I love needy vendors Emrys says: it was at least a month before that that he got in trouble again and i let him off because he was behaving lately and i belived his story Shamgar says: EMC just catered us a meal from on the border Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: his behaviour changed pretty much immediatley when he had created hyrljr Reflection says: so the banishment did not change his behavior Reflection says: he ws still misbehaving Emrys says: no Emrys says: he was caught in suspicious circumstances Emrys says: s/got in trouble/ended up in prison to be asked more questions about something that happened Reflection says: when you said 'you let him off' it implies real actions on his part which deserved punishment but didnt receive it Biteme leaves the game. Emrys says: sorry if I'm being confusing. he and anohter player were observed doing some suspicious things, we asked them about it, hyrl was acquitted of anything. Reflection says: ok Reflection says: back to my point, graduated punishments, player input Emrys says: He was banished 8/14, that incident was 9/6, I didn't "talk to him" much til this month. Luggage left the game. Ratik says: Ok, I've finally caught up, now that my daughter is awake. Ratik snickers. Shamgar hehs. Reflection says: I think it would have been more effective had you gotten to know him before 8/14 Reflection shrugs helplessly. Reflection says: that's how I see it Emrys says: you can see it how you like. my talking to him isn't what changed his behaviour. Reflection says: this is partly why I have suggested player advocates (both player and wizard) to get to know players and intervene in such situations Emrys says: talking to him in this context refering to a non-rules context, he got talked to plenty before Freya says: there are some of us, Reflection Reflection says: non admin players and wizards Reflection says: people who are seing things from a players perspective Freya says: admin in what sense do you mean? Reflection says: rather than an admin perspective Freya says: I'm not involved in administration in a rules sense at all Emrys says: Well, that oculd be a trick, since wizards are promoted to admin when we believe they can be trusted to respect players. Reflection says: I mean admin in a sense in rules oriented Freya says: my 'administrative' function is not even related to players Shamgar says: so freya /would/ count? War hmms. Emrys says: I'm not sure what that say meant Reflection. Reflection says: ok, Freya, what steps did you take to get to know Hyrl, establish a connection with him, find out what he needed that wasnt getting met within the rule structure and attempt to resolve the situation in a way in which everyone would win? Freya says: Whenever I hear discussion of someone getting in trouble, I tell the 'administrative' person involved what I know of the person that's positive Emrys says: And what did you do Reflection? Emrys says: There's no rule or policy against any wiz getting to know a player. Freya says: During the 10th anniversary I stood around in here talking with him a lot, got to know him as best I could, and warned him when he logged on both his players at once Reflection says: if I had known he was going to be banished, I would have stepped in..however I didnt know he was in trouble Emrys says: Most anyone that talked to him at all knew he was getting in trouble and warned repeatedly. Freya says: I did what I could to explain the rule to him at that time, and tell him that would get him in trouble Freya shrugs helplessly. Shamgar nods. Reflection says: I would be most happy to intervene on behalf of players in such circumstances if asked to Shamgar did as well, that same weekend. Shamgar says: and so did nietchze. Reflection says: had you established a connection with him prior to that? Shamgar notes Freya wasn't asked to either, but you expected her to have done something. Shamgar nods. Reflection says: Freya commented that she is acting as player advocate, at least that is how I understood it Reflection says: and I asked for further clarification Shamgar says: We had talked on several occaisions. Him asking me questions and so on. Most I had to refer to em because of my low wiz level, but we talked anyway. Reflection says: based on my perception of player advocacy Freya says: where I can, I do act as a player advocate...I don't consider myself an official one or anything Reflection says: I am saying we need official player advocates Emrys says: The point would be that the mud isn't as stratified as you want to make it. Anyone can get to know a player, try to intervene in their life, and if something comes up, get involved. Emrys says: I don't awnt to have appointed players that have to get to know everyone, whether the person theyhave to get to know wants them to or not. Reflection says: Jeremy, you are in attack mode, do you wanht to end the discussion? Freya says: we might not have official advocates, but we do have some advocacy Shamgar scratches his head. Emrys says: That sounds incredibly restrictive to me. Freya peers quizzically at Reflection. Emrys says: Heck, I talk to DEstruction every time Boudicca pisses someone off. Freya says: no offense, but honey, you ain't seen nothing yet! Freya grins evilly. Reflection says: of course if players dont want to talk, they wouldnt be foreced to War says: attack mode? I'm just a player, and reflection, I must say, my opinion of you has changed DRASTICALLY. Reflection says: I was referring to the comment that I am trying to 'make' the mud to be something that Emrys feels it isnt Emrys says: For all your opinions against hierarchal systems and stratification, I don't see how you're wanting this in favor of the system we have now where anyone can get to know anyone and put in their input. Reflection says: I felt attacked by that comment as well as disrespected for having a perspective that the mud IS very stratified Shamgar says: I think he was just making an observation, reflection. Raston arrives. Reflection says: he was defining my motives Freya waves at Raston. Raston waves at Ratik, Emrys, Reflection, War, Freya and Shamgar. Ratik says: Even if he was misunderstanding your point, I don't know how that's an attack. Ratik says: ? Emrys says: right now there's nothing against people talking to anyone or giving their .02, and what happens is fairly open for all to see. Emrys says: you want a system where we have defined advocates with a responsibility to get to know people and intervene. Emrys says: how is that not increasing the stratification of things, or what am i getting wrong about what you're saying? Ratik says: I wouldn't say that's stratification. Reflection says: as ombudspersons to add to the players voice, I dont see the players perspective on either the punishements list or the banish log Shamgar says: you wouldn't? Ratik says: If it has to be lower level wizards or players, it might be. Shamgar says: heh. Ratik says: But just the idea of an advocate is not. Shamgar says: If they put everything everyone said about something in the banish/punishments log it'd be too long to keep track of. Shamgar says: we'd prolly fill the disk. Ratik says: Yes, that would be rather unwieldy. Shamgar says: of an advocate no, but an official one, yes Emrys says: moving from informal advocates to formal ones isn't? Reflection says: and War, its ok that your opinion of me has changed, I am speaking up because I feel the issues are important, not because I want to be liked :) Ratik says: I wouldn't say it's "stratification". Just grouping. Biteme arrives. Biteme smiles happily. Emrys says: one might think that if what you were saying was best for all players it would be a popular perspective, by definition Biteme leaves west. Emrys says: player input might not be in the 'punishments' log, but there's nothing against them saying what they want, or posting it on the board Reflection says: it feels stratified to me, the admin are making rules and deciding how the game should be, we need player seats on the rules and regs committee as well as a greater voice for players on the game, I see advocates as a way to help do that Emrys says: and i'm asking where we lack your advocates now. other than in formalizing them, which to me only increases stratification. Reflection says: I dont see the increased stratification, I see increased player voice and clout Reflection says: therefore, decreased stratification Freya tries to ponder the situation but would rather fight something. Emrys says: You want me to say it officially? You officially have my permission to talk to every single player you want to and comment on their behaviour and/or resulting punishment as you think appropriate. Emrys says: Every last one of you. Freya says: have we said what can be said on this topic? Emrys says: But that's absolutely nothing new. Ratik says: I wish there were more players here now to give their input, actually. Shamgar nods. Reflection says: what would be new would be the power to intervene Shamgar says: me too. Ratik says: We're down to War. Freya says: The only other thing I would have to say is that I'm willing to have any players who feel they've been treated unfairly come to me and talk about it Ratik smiles happily at War. Emrys says: Damn straight. Shamgar says: not that you are insignificant War, but more would be nice. Shamgar grins evilly. Ratik nods. Reflection says: why do you resist a system of checks and balances? Reflection says: I would think that it would be a gesture of fairmindedness and wanting to de-stratify Shamgar says: hell, they can even talk to me. I can't comment or make any promises, but they can tell me anything they want, and I can guarantee I'll approach emrys or one of the other admin about it. Shamgar says: In fact, I've already had players bring their concernsa bout issues to me and talked to emrys about it, stated their case, and (when they so wished) told him who so he could take it up directly with them to make sure it got resolved. Reflection says: yes, too bad Tsubo left when his perspectives were labled 'unconstructive' Ratik says: When did that happen?? Ratik says: I was guessing that he misunderstood a comment of mine, but I would never have expected that reaction from him. Reflection says: he left after our inputs were called unconstructive, that was my perception of the situation anyway Reflection says: he stated that it was a waste of time then and left...hopefully I didnt misunderstand the situation Shamgar shrugs helplessly. Shamgar says: couldn't say Ratik says: Yeah, it's why he said "waste of time" that I'm concerned. Shamgar says: I really didn't understand what he was saying, but he didn't give any chance to ask him about it. Ratik says: And I have e-mailed him personally in hopes to figure out what happened. Shamgar nods at Ratik. Ratik says: I've never gotten the opportunity to "sit down" with Tsubo on the latest issues, and that makes me wonder. Emrys says: I was going to go back through all his says and mail him in case he misunderstood something I said... I agreed with most of what he was saying but I was talking to a lot of people at once. [Em: Tsubo later told us he was late for an appointment when he left. If he wishes to give comment on why he left for insertion/clarification here, he's welcome to.] Shamgar says: I have to say that I think one of the biggest problems I see here, is that players need to be more willing to ask an admin for their time, and express their feelings on issues. Reflection says: at the very least I think there should be player representatives on the rules and regs committee Shamgar says: if each individual voiced their concerns like we want them to, then we wouldn't have this problem. Shamgar says: We'd actually know how most of the players stand, and how many feel a particular way. Ratik says: You know, I'd feel better if I had a one-to-one with everyone had complaints. Reflection says: perhaps the admin seems unapproachable to players at present Shamgar nods at Ratik. Emrys says: I don't have any problems with checks and balances. I think the particular thing you're talking about is primarily a solution looking for a problem, since the things you refer to as it fixing don't exist according to the majority of players I talk to. You're the exception, and you aren't a player. Ratik says: I'm afraid that some things are being missed in translation? Ratik says: And I also don't get to ask direct questions from my perspective. Ratik says: That's not an argument against advocates, btw. Reflection says: my concern is that players need more clout, and any way to achieve that is a good thing, I think Freya says: My main problem with specific players on committees is how to make sure a specific player speaks for the players in general Shamgar says: All we have to go on is the things we hear from talking to players. And for something that is supposedly so important, very few people seem to care enough to show up and talk about it. Emrys says: What more clout could they have then the ability to vote with their feet? Freya says: my experience is that players have a lot of different opinions, just as wizards do Shamgar says: A few people did the last meeting, but my feeling was that most of them went away feeling like they had learned things weren't quite the way they thought they were. misconceptions were cleared upa nd they went away happy. Shamgar says: hence they aren't here tonight. Emrys says: I solicit opinions from players as much as I can, directly, and the ones I've asked like the way things are. Shamgar says: instead, it's just you. Tsubo had concerns earlier, but I don't think we really disagreed with many of his, and we didn't get to finish talking to him. Reflection says: I heard from one player that he didnt feel the notification was adequate for the meeting Emrys says: That is, they don't see the problems you're talking about as real. Shamgar says: there'll be others. Shamgar says: still, that's just one player Shamgar says: out of our whole playerbase? Emrys says: he was probably right Reflection says: perhaps many of the players who feel as I do hae already voted with their feet? Emrys says: that wasn't the only meeting Emrys says: and yet the mud is growing Shamgar nods. Shamgar says: I don't expect every player to say. We talked about that before Ref. Emrys says: new players Emrys says: new players with friends Emrys says: old players returning Shamgar says: er stay that is Shamgar says: I have played other muds since I started here. But I never stayed. Shamgar says: what I want is here. Shamgar says: what others want may not be and that's ok. Because we are all individuals Shamgar says: we all have different likes and dislikes Shamgar says: and DR can't be all things to all people. Shamgar says: whoa Shamgar says: deja vue Reflection says: has it occurred to you that most of the people who stay *are* those who share the admins perspective of how the game should be played Shamgar hehs. Emrys says: I don't have a problem with your advocate ideas from any kind of checks and balances perspective. I worry more about politicing and popularity contests and losing chances for a better more direct relationship with players. Emrys says: That seems self-evident. Shamgar says: I think that's exactly what I just said actually Shamgar grins evilly. Ratik says: Well, that's not necessarily a problem. Emrys says: The mud is still growing. Reflection says: and that those who feel that their different perspectives arent being heard are leveaving, I value diversity and that bothers me Emrys says: The mud is still growing. Shamgar says: you can still have diversity in unity Ratik peers quizzically at Shamgar. Ratik says: Lucifer! Emrys says: what specifically are we talking about being diverse about? Shamgar says: in the US, or pretty much any other country, you have a diverse people who all agree on a set of rules. And guess, what, if people don't agree, they can leave the country, or (if they choose to break the rules) go to jail, or just comply Emrys says: we're all about differente playing/socializing styles Emrys says: we're implementing all we can in that regard Reflection says: well, now that you have constructed the game into something that you fully enjoy, I think it's time for me to find a place where I can enjoy myself :) I will still hope that things will change tho. Reflection waves. Reflection goes home. Emrys says: i'll enjoy the game more when i get rid of the rules against letting people help each other with their other characters. War laughs. War nods. Shamgar raises an eyebrow. Shamgar says: really? Shamgar says: you don't like the rules against helping your other chars/multiplaying? Emrys says: should I not say that out loud? Emrys smirks. War says: I don't understand it....she wants you to overlook what's specifically in the help characters section? Emrys says: i didn't say multiplaying Shamgar says: well, how do you help other chars/w/out multiplaying? Or do you mean like leaving stuff somewhere to go get it with another char? Emrys nods. Shamgar says: ah War says: so we, as players, don't have to read the rules, and shouldn't have to answer to you for violating those rules? Shamgar says: yeah, I have no problem with that